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How Many Die From Medical Mistakes in U.S. Hospitals?

An updated estimate says it could be at least 210,000 patients a year – more than twice the number in the Institute of Medicine’s frequently quoted report, “To Err is Human.”

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Suzan Shinazy RN

Sep. 22, 2013, 1:53 a.m.

Dr. Grassi, of course there are many solutions out there. There are many different medical errors.  As one physician told me, when I asked why they continued to admit their patients to a floor with known high infection rates and high incidences of major safety problems, he said, ‘It is the only hospital in town. Sure, we all complain but it falls on deaf ears.”

Dr. Grassi, did you just try to belittle patient advocates? The very people that have suffered from medical errors? Should they not have a voice?  Is it their passion to improve healthcare that bothers you?

Dr Ron Grassi

Sep. 22, 2013, 2:12 a.m.

No Doc. Not what so ever. I am an advocate of the truth. I have already been contacted by the media over this. I will not sell out. I promise I will not take any sides or blame anyone, anybody or anything. Just stimulate debate, arguments, public and professional awareness. Nothing in this for me here. If it results in saving just one life it is worth it. Much like us in our practice. It makes it all worth it. I do not want to go on and on about intellectualizing this as 600 / day perish. It is a problem that we have to confront head on. Thus. Here we are.

Bob Blumm, PA-C, DFAAPA

Sep. 22, 2013, 1:38 p.m.

My latest statistics have demonstrated 100,000 deaths per year which has not changed in five years and a mortality rate of SSI’s of 170,000. this is of course out of a surgical patient number of 45 million in the USA.
Bob

Dr Ron Grassi

Sep. 22, 2013, 1:49 p.m.

@ Bob B: I don’t know the breakdown yet but I’m sure JAMA has it. 500 of these deaths / day are due to prescription errors. Not the patients. Doc’s and Pharmacists. This is mind boggling.

Bob Blumm

Sep. 22, 2013, 2:03 p.m.

I can understand that statistic relating to prescriptions which reflects on our apathy and not doing due diligence by cross checking for interactions or understanding which system metabolizes the drug. there are many programs such as Epocrates that have that information available at our fingertips so what’s wrong. Yellow pages used to say"let your fingers do the walking.” We need to let our fingers check out this information and not use the texting while we drive approach which adds to even more deaths per year. There are also mini paperback PDRs that have this information and I subscribe to it and keep it in my lab coat when doing an Urgent Care Clinic. Let’s get serious about our responsibility to our patients.
Bob Blumm

Dayton Smith, Jr.

Sep. 22, 2013, 2:34 p.m.

I want to thank Marshall Allen and ProPublica for publishing this article and opening up this discussion.  I have read every one of the comments mentioned above but feel all of us are throwing darts at the symptoms of this national crises while ignoring the core issue. Like it or not the core issue is the US Medical Industry is a 2.8 Trillion Dollar business that generates astronomical profit margins which lacks proper standards, regulation and any form of transparency or accountability. Furthermore, we seem to think the solution to all this unnecessary pain, suffering and death lies with the very industry causing it.
I have entered this discussion as a victim of the system in place and I am here to tell you it is very, very, very broken from the top down. In my capacity as a victim I, along with others, have formed a national organization called Medical Malpractice Awareness and it is our intent to become a voice of victims. We do not intend this voice to be sugar coated and it is our intent to call a spade a spade and if this upsets some people in the medical industry or the government officials who support it how wonderful.
To allow a little insight as to what us victims are made to face if we take exception to someone killing our loved one I have provided a link to the 8/24/13 letter I wrote to the doctor who made my wife Leanne suffer terribly while taking her to her death six years ago on this very date or 8/24/07 http://www.medicalmalpracticeawareness.com/confronting-my-wifes-killer/ . This letter may be about what my wife and I have had to face but it is consistent with the thousands of victims I am dealing with. In all cases, not one doctor or medical group has accepted any form of responsibility for their actions. In a lot of these cases, mine included, the medical professional and hospital group responsible have gone into the patient’s medical records and withheld, destroyed and re-wrote them after eliminating their patient. Thus, in many instances including Leanne’s, the surviving family members have filed a complaint with the state medical boards and in 100% of these complaints the medical board not only ignored the record tampering and the deceit and lies that must go with it but found no wrong doing and dismissed everyone of these complaints as unfounded. This is a cross section of all states but with a very common bond. The medical boards of all these states are made up of medical professionals and we as victims are left with the fox guarding the hen house.
To solve this problem it is vital all federal and state regulatory agencies be abolished and replaced with one new national agency. This new agency, in and of itself must be transparent and accountable, and be responsible for the licensing, standards and regulation of all medical professionals and facilities. Furthermore, this new agency cannot be directed by hospital administrators or attorney’s it has to be managed by “in the trench doctors”, actual victims and business minds who have a proven record of problem resolution. The biggest problem each of us victims faces, and with the system as a whole, is the absolute lack of transparency and accountability. Thus, by having one national agency responsible for instituting far standards and regulations along with mandating total transparency and accountability I strongly believe 80% of all the present problems would go away.
It is way past time to put a stop to “one in three” people who enter a US Medical Facility being harmed or killed. As a start the term “serious adverse event” has to be eliminated and we must call it what it is or the suffering and death caused by medical malpractice, negligence, carelessness, incompetence and flat out arrogance of many medical professionals.
I entered this discussion as a result of my 47 year old 5’2”, 110 lb. wife, Leanne entering a medical clinic over six years ago to have an issue she had experienced for the third time in two weeks checked. When Leanne walked through the door of this clinic both Leanne and I were programmed to believe in and trust the medical process and it is this very trust that became a major contributing factor in Leanne’s death. To me this has never been about whether Leanne lived or died from what ended up being endometrial cancer. It was and is about any chance she may have had to fight this invasion to her body being taken away and her odds of survival reduced to zero the very minute the door to this medical clinic closed behind her.
To the doctor who claimed above that many of these patients would have died anyhow I would like to say Leanne did not enter a medical facility to die anyhow. She entered it to be treated and saved. Instead, she was made to suffer terribly while being taken to her death without ever receiving any form of treatment or pain control as chasing dollars was far more important than Leanne’s life.
Dayton Smith, Jr.
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Jeff Innis

Sep. 22, 2013, 11:23 p.m.

Read “The Checklist Manifesto”, which documents much of this, and how relatively simple checklists can prevent many of the “too err is human” ...errors. Checklists are used routinely by aviation, and it is sheer blind obstinancy and stupidity by the medical industry not to mandate their use in ORs and elsewhere.

frank jackson

Sep. 23, 2013, 2:59 a.m.

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Ralph Ostrander

Sep. 23, 2013, 3:22 a.m.

It is the only profession that it is OK to be full of yourself and charge rather you fail or not.

I come in you tell me it is warts on my feet it turns out the bumps are the black plague you should have to give the money back.

I come in for back surgery and die no charge.

These simple changes will make them do better.

ibsteve2u

Sep. 23, 2013, 9:14 a.m.

If anyone thinks the repercussions of these medical “errors” are limited (and I beg forgiveness for using a word that seems unnecessarily…clinical…under the circumstances) to the victims and their families, you might want to read the linked analysis and gain a better understanding of the potential of these “errors” to finish the transformation of medicine in America into Medicine, Inc.

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2012/03/onethird-hospitals-close-2020.html

And I probably don’t have to add who will be the initial victims of that transformation…

http://www.americaswire.org/drupal7/?q=content/hospital-closings-jeopardize-care-poor-urban-communities

Note that I said “initial”...throw in success of the Republicans’/Tea Party’s/right’s attacks on the Affordable Care Act and the minimum wage, and that range of victims will quickly expand through 70% of America’s families rather than being “limited” to “just” (abjectly clinical words, again) America’s urban poor of any and all races.

Yanling Yu

Sep. 23, 2013, 9:39 a.m.

I am amazed that, rather than joining the effort to really document how many patients are harmed by preventable medical errors each year, hospital association is sticking with 98,000 number by the Institute of
Medicine. I have no doubt that the IOM estimate is outdated. As in the 2012 OIG report (OEI-06-09-00092, 2012), hospitals report only one percent of hospital-acquired adverse events.

In fact, as early as in 2000, just one year after the IOM report, Dr. Barbara Starfield published in JAMA a landmark study, “Is US Healthcare Really the Best in the World?”  She estimated that the total number of deaths
caused by medical care in the US is about 225,000 per year (http://www.jhsph.edu/sebin/s/k/2000_JAMA_Starfield.pdf).  Her estimate puts the medical system as the third leading cause of death in the US, right after heart disease (597,689) and cancer (574,743).

Based on a thoughtful analysis, John estimated that the harm could be as many as 440,000 per year. That is the true message I get from his article—- we are reaching an alarming epidemic of harming our citizens in the name of medical care and, unfortunately, few document and reveal not only the magnitude of harms but each and every harm.  What happened to my dad proves it.

It is time for all us to do something about it. Let’s start with increasing health care transparency and accountability.

Dina J Padilla

Sep. 23, 2013, 12:21 p.m.

When President Nixon okay’ed making more money by giving out less care via HMO’s, (back in the early 70’s) that is when real medical for patients lost and the beginning of the medical industry began and Kaiser WAS the HMO that Nixon was referring to and started it all and the rest is history. See Nixon tapes at kaiserpapers.org or Micheal Moore.
Job loss and stagnant wages, with less benefits started too under Nixon’s regime that affected the minorities (includes women) and that they are the desired result to get little to no care or anything else for that matter.

Bob Latino

Sep. 23, 2013, 2:37 p.m.

@4Proact.  An a medical error investigator this is unfortunately not a surprise.

Even in the original IOM report, the fine print indicated the numbers only reflected ‘reported’ errors of commission and not omission.  There are likely a high multiple of errors of omission (where action should have been taken and wasn’t) than commission.

We never seem to have the time and budget to do things right, but we always seem to have the time and budget to do them again!

The way the Affordable Care Act is being rolled out now, millions more of Americans will we subjected to worsening quality of healthcare and decreased patient safety.

Bob Latino
CEO
Reliability Center, Inc.
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Rick Schrenker

Sep. 26, 2013, 9:40 a.m.

I’ve worked on medical device-related aspects of risk management for over 30 years.  A few months ago I experienced a number of “near misses”  while an inpatient.  Following is how I shared my story:  http://aamiblog.org/2013/07/16/rick-schrenker-the-healthcare-technology-professional-as-patient/

ibsteve2u

Sep. 27, 2013, 2:59 p.m.

The way the Affordable Care Act is being rolled out now, millions more of Americans will we subjected to worsening quality of healthcare and decreased patient safety.

Bob Latino
CEO

Now that is an interesting note…implication…to close on. 

It seems to suggest that either we accept the deaths of the under- or uninsured (and I would remind you that those latter pools are increasing as arguments of “offshore competition” are used to both suppress wages and salaries and destroy benefits and jobs; consequently, the numbers of deaths will also increase if we stick to the current system of CEOs deciding who gets health care) or we increase the workload of America’s health care system and thus drive the number of medical…“errors”...up.

As if the medical system of America were immune to market forces and the laws of supply and demand and so would not increase its pool of - perhaps more - qualified providers to meet the increased demand.

Of course, a CEO involved in medical litigation likely has an “ear to the red carpet”, so to speak, of the medical profession in America; perhaps he knows that the American medical community intends to suppress the supply of medical providers.  That has certainly been done before:

http://www.gnyha.org/8067/Default.aspx

Not that one should assume that the drive to suppress supply is/would come from the medical professionals themselves; further research on the suppression of supply will inform you that the American medical educational community has occasionally also been a participant in that suppression.  (Can you think of a teaching field where it would be easier to raise what you charge per student instead of your number of students in your effort to increase your income?  The same amount of teaching work for ever more money…good job, if you can get it.  No doubt our public school teachers are envious.). 

And there is the elephant in the room:  The increasing transformation of/manipulation of America’s hospitals and bed counts by “for profit’ entities.  All facetiousness aside, any CEO knows that restricting supply yields the opportunity to transform “profit” into private taxation….especially when the market with the demand has no other choice than to grasp at what supply is available - as is the case with medical care (and oil).

One final point:  You cannot make the argument that the wealthy and well-to-do (practically synonymous with “insured” these days) will be at an increased risk of “worsening quality of healthcare and decreased patient safety” without tacitly acknowledging that the vaunted “free” and “charitable” health care provided to our indigent, jobless, and poor is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more likely to kill you than the level of health care the wealthy and well-to-do receive.

Why should that worry you if you’re wealthy or well-to-do?  A surprising number of crime and accident victims hit the emergency room sans wallet and other forms of identification.

Dina J. Padilla

Sep. 28, 2013, 2:30 p.m.

That same wealthy CEO will also recivie to his pension a hidden “deadman”, “keyman” ’ and “peasant life insurance policy”. So, the sooner you die, the faster that huge hidden life insurance policy goes into his retirement and the faster we die, the sooner he can retire!. Walmart lost out on one case where the young man/employee who died was found to have about 150,000 dollars hidden life ins policy, The re-insurer didn’t want to pay Walmart and they lost, this case was in about 2005. It was tried to make it lawful that all employers across the U.S. Congress that all employees were made aware of hidden insurance policies taken out by their employer. So, far, only Washington state makes employers make their companies tell their employees of ALL life insurance policies taken out on them the employees. While there are millions of poorer workers, that leaves a minefield of policies going to you companies CEO retirement plan.

Shirley Desmond

Oct. 1, 2013, 6:12 p.m.

Thank you, Thank you Marshall Allen.  This story has suffered the Medical code of silence far to long. There are a lot of very dedicated people in health care. Unless they are totally oblivious, they know this is all true.  Now is our chance all of you out there.  SPEAK UP.  Lets change this and start doing what we went into health care for in the first place.  This is a perfect chance. To save a life.

Danny Long

Oct. 1, 2013, 6:32 p.m.

Media need to Strike while the iron is hot,

Never before in history has there been such an intersection of timely opportunity!  Miss this opportunity to strike now, and it may never happen again.
Courage to seize the moment is mandated by the public.

Joel Selmeier

Oct. 1, 2013, 8:21 p.m.

Shirley, you under estimate the capacity of groups to be oblivious. They do not believe these statistics. They do not believe that they or anyone they know is causing problems anything like the ones discussed here. They are oblivious to this. See: http://patient-safety.com/white-wall-of-silence.htm

We are oblivious too, but to different information. We are oblivious to their state of mind and their position. If we were not, we would not be imagining that they can solve this problem for us. We would solve it ourselves.

Shirley Desmond

Oct. 2, 2013, 2:35 p.m.

Dear Joel,    Oh yes they do, that is why they work so hard to cover up when they get caught with there hands in the cookie jar.. So to speak.  I was calling out for some of the decent people in health care to speak up and help us.  I know only to well of the white wall of silence. Interestingly enough one of the examples were about rape.. DR David Van De Loo worked as a Pediatrician for 18 years, sexually abusing little boys. Parents reported him, now 18 years later, when he finally got sued by the children, that have now grown up. The hospital states they did not know. The last i heard they were not letting the hospital off the hook.  If you Google his name you can get the whole story.  Some of us really do have objectivity to collect accurate information..Some of us know of innocent victims being murdered, yes in the hospitals. On September 22 in this post Dayton Smith Jr. Told of his group Medical Mal Practice awareness.. I urge you and every one reading this to contact him… I have.  This guy has it right and i have all the evidence.  I would like to believe all the case’s i have documented. Will one day help solve this horrific problem.  I am wondering Joel if you have lost a loved one to medical error, Medical Battery, or murder?

Joel Selmeier

Oct. 2, 2013, 3:21 p.m.

I wasn’t saying that they never knowingly cover up anything. I was saying that what they see of what is wrong is only a fraction of what an objective third part would see. One of the mechanisms leading to their not seeing most of what is wrong is covered in the first paragraph of the link I gave above. It is not a link that explains that there is a wall of silence. It explains one of the mechanisms that creates it.

Of course, they knowingly cover up things. But the lion share of what is wrong in medicine is outside of what they are able to see from within the confines of their culture and beliefs and self-interest.

This is something to which patients tend to be oblivious. If we weren’t, we would not be imagining that educating them on these points would lead to behavior from them that would make a difference.

Dayton Smith, Jr.

Oct. 2, 2013, 3:55 p.m.

I am not sure who made the recent post responding to Joel. However, I am Dayton Smith and after living this for over six years I do believe I have it right. It was Senator Dick Durbin who told me the solution to medical malpractice was to learn from it and that I have. How sad it is that it is us victims without a voice, no civil liberties, no rights and no such thing as justice to be the only ones who have learned anything about medical malpractice, negligence, carelessness and flat out arrogance of many medical professionals. As I have said many times, the medical industry is responsible for all this needless pain, suffering and death but it is Durbin, the rest of his senate buddies, congress and the president of this once great nation who are 100% the cause. It is your representatives that have sold us out in favor of power, politics, greed and their budging back pockets. This is why the medical industry posts seven plus lobbyists to each member of congress and the senate out spend all other lobbyists by a ratio of 4:1 and in recent year’s congress and the senate have pocketed the 5.6 Billion dollars the medical industry sent their way. As a result, it is these same career politicians who are really the cause of 1,000,000 plus people being killed each and every year due to “avoidable medical error” of which many of these deaths are flat out manslaughter with a planned cover up staged afterwards as this and tort reform are just a couple of the “back pocket politic laws” the medical industry has purchased with their 5.6 Billion investment in congress and the senate. I would encourage everyone to go into our website linked here http://www.medicalmalpracticeawareness.com/  and while in the site watch a few of the videos presented by victims and how their life has been altered because they took exception to someone flat out killing their loved one. Also, while in the site read some of the stories told by victims under “Victim Posts” and also linked here http://www.medicalmalpracticeawareness.com/category/guest-posts/
  This is the hell us victims face as a direct result of today’s medical industry and the government that supports it. By the way, death by “avoidable medical error” is not a “serious adverse event” it is the killing of a patient by a medical professional.
Dayton Smith
Medical Malpractice Awareness

Shirley

Oct. 2, 2013, 10:50 p.m.

Dear Dayton,  It was i who was trying to tell Joel , but you just did a much better job, Thank you.  Now that i have your attention please look for my Urgent mail i sent to your windows live last night.    Call me tonight if you want…...

Joel Selmeier

Oct. 3, 2013, 1:42 a.m.

Dr. Grassi:
Quite a few comments ago you asked if there are any solutions. Here is one: http://patient-safety.com/patient-agency.html

Dayton Smith, Jr.

Oct. 3, 2013, 10:25 a.m.

Shirley I cannot find a number for you and do not know what windows live is. This must be yet one more way of communicating? Anyhow, if you have time just email me direct or .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) and I will call if you leave a number.
Dayton

Shirley Desmond

Oct. 3, 2013, 1:55 p.m.

Hi Joel,    You avoided my question… Why ?

Joel Selmeier

Oct. 3, 2013, 2:12 p.m.

There are other sectors of our lives under this same government with these same kinds of corruptions and pressures. Health care does not have a monopoly on what you describe - agriculture and the auto industry, for instance. Yet we don’t have to pay $400 for a hamburger or drive cars that kill hundreds of thousands of us each year. Because when someone builds a car that keeps exploding, we find out about it and we don’t buy it. In medicine we don’t find out about it. In medicine a 2nd party tell us what we have to buy and a 3rd party pays for it without our having any idea what the success rate is. We cannot make cost-benefit analyses without the success rate and the cost. For food and cars we can learn both so we get food and cars that do not bankrupt or kill us so often. If we could get similar information about health care, we could there too eventually, after the market adjusted to having intelligent consumers for the first time. So Congress and the President can be !00% the cause only if we continue to let all of the decisions be made for us by other people. Which if what we will have to do if we don’t get better information than we have now. That’s what my link above is about, how to get better information. That is what keeps the other sectors of our lives from being 100% controlled by the forces you describe, isn’t it?

Shirley Desmond

Oct. 3, 2013, 2:58 p.m.

Hi Joel this is true.  But what if the person has all the information and the hospital holds you by Force and makes you receive there care and purchase there product….

Dayton Smith, Jr.

Oct. 4, 2013, 12:31 p.m.

Joel there is a great deal of right in what you are saying. The medical industry is not even remotely part of supply and demand economics. When in need of medical care people end up at the mercy of the very people competing for the same dollar. However, there is really no type of competitive shopping as the prices are fixed based on profit margin desired. A great deal of this has been reported by Steve Brill in his March, 2013 article in Time Magazine called “Bitter Pill” – Why Hospital Bills are Killing Us which I have linked here. http://www.medicalmalpracticeawareness.com/bitterpill.pdf
We at Medical Malpractice Awareness are about the 1,000,000 plus people being killed each and every year along with the millions more being harmed due to medical malpractice, negligence, carelessness, incompetence and arrogance of many medical professionals. When one of our loved one dies due to “avoidable medical error we do not call it a “serious adverse event” we call it killing our love one. This is why it is so difficult for us surviving victims as no matter how careless or negligent a medical professional is they have no responsibility or accountability for their actions. Furthermore, when in doubt the same medical professional and hospital group will go into the medical records of the patient they killed and alter them without any form of recourse. As a result, we the victims are made to live with this terrible treatment of our loved one and the grief, anger and hurt that goes with it for the balance of our life.
Steve Brill’s article “Bitter Pill” does not get into all this unnecessary pain suffering and death as he concentrates on how the medical industry is destroying individuals through bankruptcy but if people read between the lines this article helps explain why 1,000,000 plus people are being killed each and every year and why it will continue unchecked.
I actually agree with you that there must be an independent way to evaluate a doctor or hospital and it is a great idea but with a news media that refuses to bring out the depth of what is happening around us very few people will even know this may be available.
The problems we face and the real solution has been described in the Medical Malpractice Awareness mission statement which I have also linked here. http://www.medicalmalpracticeawareness.com/mma-national-organization-mission-statement/
What is vital is each of us who understand what has really happened to this once great country and the congress, senate and president who have sold us out in favor of power, politics; greed and their back pocket unite as one so we can take on the people 100% the cause of all these problems. Anyone who thinks they still live in a democracy has yet to have a family member become the next “one in three” people harmed or killed for merely walking through the door of a US Medical Facility.
Dayton

Dina J Padilla

Oct. 4, 2013, 1:32 p.m.

I’ll repeat this, that the medical community became a business, thus an industry. This is all in thanks to kaiser that is one of the country’s largest HMO’s a not for profit(but worth about 60 billion. Nixon gave kaiser the go ahead to provide less health care while making more profit. The military and kaiser go hand in hand. Many of kaiser doctors with Worker comp doctors worked for or with kaiser and still does. My question IS WHY the military and a HMO work together? Well, it’s TO thin out the population and be able to charge and get rich for it all! Kaiser is also an insurance company. Insurance companies deny claims all the time, that’s their job.
Insurance companies make the actuarial decision on what health care to “mete” out., which is little to none, although if you ask kaiser , they are number 1. I just wonder what they are number 1 at. since there are little to no care (many denials and ways to off patients in many forms and those that need medical care and don’t get it, are just called crazy just as well as their injured workers. But even
crazy” people need real health care!
Kaiser was never about real health care and the rest of the medical community took the same pathway? THE gateway to the trillions.
Medical care today resembles nothing in comparison to the 60’s(prior) where medical care wasn’t a bottom line. Knocking people off early (the earlier the better) saves on SS & Medicare, Pensions (and many other things) and the CEO’s are rewarded with the final part of that despicable but final solution (nazi term) where they get the hidden, deadman, keyman life insurance policies on your life! Don’t forget, that IS precisely what happened in Poland in WW 11 was all about insurance policies and all the money the insurance companies made while acquiring everyone’s personal info to know how and when to round them out later. Meeting survivors of this human atrocity at 8 years of age and working in the medical field during 35 years and what is going on for the last 45 years is proof of our final solution! Only witnesses like those who survive as we do get to do, do change all of this. When money is the driving factor as in the insurance industry which is in the medical community along with pharma & chemical companies (monsanto provided the chemicals for those in WW11 Poland but monsanto been making poisons for well over 100 hundred years), we all have to be extremely diligent and call/demand for responsibility and accountability by our legislators, because in the end, it is them who make the laws to help insurers like kaiser get to do what ever it is they want and like so many other health care businesses, they are doing the same thing to. How many legoislators in D.C. are former doctors and how many health care businesses do they own. Try Frist, for one and his business is United Health Care South, a giant insurance and medical care business!!!!!!! Then look at the ones who are also invested in healthcare, insurance, bio , chemical and pharmaceuticals. This is not about patients or alive ones anyway. IT is all JUST about profit and nothing more & we as a people, stewards of ourselves and others need to collectively get together again and demand far better for all of us!

Joel Selmeier

Oct. 4, 2013, 8:23 p.m.

Dayton, we’re almost on the same page. For instance, everyone knows half of the lawsuits are caused by 5% of the doctors. We can scream forever for them just to tell us which ones they are so that we don’t go there, but they never will. They neither want to nor are able to. However, we can find it out ourselves if we arrange the means to collect independently all of the data I suggest that we do. We don’t need press to do that. We just need to set up an organization, like the one at my link, that has the ability to discover from patients what no one in medicine puts in the record. One community at a time we could figure out who is good at what and who is just plain dangerous. Where are we getting infected? What is causing too many complications? Who never makes anyone better?

If just 10% of patients become that smart, it will change many things. Press might make it less likely to happen. The people who don’t want it to happen would be too well informed. We need press only if we imagine someone else will do this for us. Government cannot do this. Health care cannot do this. We can.

Shirley Desmond

Oct. 4, 2013, 10:12 p.m.

Hello everyone,  I have a little information on the reporters from Kansas that tried to alert the public about bad doctors. I wish i knew how to put a copy of all this on here, sorry i do not. the article was US data on bad doctors closed to the public. It reads…The Obama administration has closed public access to it’s database of disciplinary action against doctors and other medical professionals, basically because reporters were getting to good at using it.  Three presidents of journalism organizations.  AHCI…. IRE   &  SPJ   sent a letter to The Administrator of H.R.S.A.  requesting that immediate steps be taken to republish this and there strong disapproval of the H.R.S.A.  attempted intimidation of a reporter.  The government can and health care does but the information is Kept from the public. Even when civil action this information is kept confidential.  How would you handle a letter from the federal government JOEL , when they tell you there are confidentiality regulations, and threaten penalty for up to 11,000 dollars for each violation.  Now you have two questions to answer.    thanks

Patient Kaye

Oct. 5, 2013, 1:46 p.m.

To Dr. Ron Grassi:

How “dare,” you . . . “if” you truly are a DOCTOR, defend “your” industry standards to a PLANE CRASH statistic?  Either you aren’t a very “consumer, aka… YOUR SALARY,” which “we” pay, OR you are a heartless farce without much trajectory, perhaps ... BOTH!!

It literally sickens me beyond nausea, SiR… not only have I been a Registered Nurse, whom actually CARES both for the mind, spirit, and body as a whole. . . I’ve also been (unfortunately,” the preverbal helpless patient… basically feeling as though I’ve been left to the wolves, all the being imprisoned within a modern day TORTURE CHAMBER, with heartless, enemies. . . whom happen to MOSTLY be ROBOTS . . . without HUMAN interaction, without HUMAN emotion/feeling!!  The MAJORITY of such cases are quite simple. . . “is this patient knowledgeable enough and informed/educationally enough…” to actually KNOW that we as “DOCTORS,” aren’t “exposing,” our hard earned placards nor Medical expertise on the line . .. . for MEDICAL MALPRACTICE ? 

How often do doctors this day and time remotely share a mere resemblance to those of years past, when “real dedication and human elements were much more about the well being of the PATIENT, did you perhaps ever even hear of “HOUSE CALLS?”  Likely NOT!!

Patient Kaye

Oct. 5, 2013, 1:56 p.m.

To Dr. Ron Grassi:

How “dare,” you . . . “if” you truly are a DOCTOR, defend “your” industry standards to a PLANE CRASH statistic?  Either you aren’t a very “consumer, aka… YOUR SALARY,” which “we” pay, OR you are a heartless farce without much trajectory, perhaps ... BOTH!!

It literally sickens me beyond nausea, SiR… not only have I been a Registered Nurse, whom actually CARES both for the mind, spirit, and body as a whole. . . I’ve also been (unfortunately,” the preverbal helpless patient… basically feeling as though I’ve been left to the wolves, all the being imprisoned within a modern day TORTURE CHAMBER, with heartless, enemies. . . whom happen to MOSTLY be ROBOTS . . . without HUMAN interaction, without HUMAN emotion/feeling!!  The MAJORITY of such cases are quite simple. . . “is this patient knowledgeable enough and informed/educationally enough…” to actually KNOW that we as “DOCTORS,” aren’t “exposing,” our hard earned placards nor Medical expertise on the line . .. . for MEDICAL MALPRACTICE ? 

How often do doctors this day and time remotely share a mere resemblance to those of years past, when “real dedication and human elements were much more about the well being of the PATIENT, did you perhaps ever even hear of “HOUSE CALLS?”  Likely NOT!!

and. . . God help us ALL once Obama Care aka non Affordable Healthcare is literally SHOVED DOWN EVERYONE’S THROAT… or up the rectum . . .. however one prefers to look @ that DISASTEROUS monster, looming over both doctors, patients, and everyone else UNLESS you happen to be those other non PEOPLE servers, called FEDERAL GOVERNMENT folks. . . from President to congress members!!  Thank God there are some who may actually continue this horrendous BATTLE FOR WE THE PEOPLE, who want to make our “own choices,” without governmental bureaucrats mandating OUR healthcare needs, decisions, and CHOICES!!!” 

WAKE UP and smell the coffee AMERICA, wealthy Canadians seeking “privatized HEALTH CARE,” was once extremely common place for the ever sought after TRUE AMERICAN DOC., that should be enough INFO to last for a couple of generations, anyway you slice that PIE!!

Dina J. Padilla

Oct. 5, 2013, 2:21 p.m.

I would like to know WHAT the face of medical care would be like today if you took out the stakeholder factor or the stock market factor and return the euphemism as “consumers” back to patients where you are truly looked at like a real human being rather than the bottom line of some clinic or hospital that is on the market. THAT in of itself is what is wrong with medical care that IS now called “health care”. When it turned into a business is when is it all went to hell! So much for the market place to ensure our health. HA! That’s a rather sick joke, isn’t it? Where your life actually means nothing. To promote infections (in hospitals & clinics because you just do not keep it all clean) that kill by the many thousands all to “invent” pseudo vaccines for pharma is yet another way for the market to flourish with just a few gaining money while you get & die! There are many ways to off people in medical field and no one lay person can figure them all out because as you discover some, there are many news ways coming down the pike and now the bio world opened up, all them tiny microscopic critters that no can see. hear, smell but be guaranteed that someone has it all patented (the U.S.Patent office knows who has those nasty little germs) for more money betting on you getting sick or dead.

Joel Selmeier

Oct. 5, 2013, 7:06 p.m.

Already answered that question, Shirley. Independently collect the information from the patient community. That is generating our own data, not using theirs. Their data is not objective, not honest, not complete, and subject to problems like the familiar one you pointed to. What we need to know most is information that is not collected by anyone anywhere. We need to collect it ourselves and let them get it from us.

Joel Selmeier

Oct. 5, 2013, 7:25 p.m.

Dina, a little history. Medicine might be the third oldest profession and as such it always has been a business. And it used to be worse than it is now - not just in terms of whether it healed people, but in terms with how it treated its patients. 250 years ago if you entered a hospital you literally were shackled so that you could not escape and sometimes you were experimented on against your will. A very humane doctor worked hard to alter that practice. It was a new idea, that patients might deserve to be treated like humans. It has been a slow climb to where we are now. There might be no time in history to which you could return without medicine being a worse place to be than it is now. I’m not suggesting that what it is now is acceptable from the perspective of patients, but the idea that it used to be acceptable and then became unacceptable isn’t born out by history. 160 years ago surgeons didn’t even wash their hands before performing surgery. 50 years ago they diagnosed patients as needing lobotomies and didn’t even tell them what those were before turning them into vegetables with them. As bad as it is now, it used to be worse.

Shirley Desmond

Oct. 6, 2013, 12:42 a.m.

Hi   OK Joel ,  I have the data… I have the independent records, I can prove, people are killed in hospitals,  What do i do with all this data?  Where do i take it , who do i give it to, who will hold the killers Accountable. ?  If anyone was charged with a crime , i have enough evidence for a conviction, but not if it is a doctor.  I believe this whole article was to make people aware of the dangerous, business, medicine has become. The total Unaccountability and arrogance of the physicians, that Kill, and get away with it.  I hate to tell you this but Lobotomies are still done on a regular basis, only now they are done with Chemicals.    Hospitals are a very dangerous place, if you have a regular doctor, that is not the doctor that will treat you, in most hospitals today, your team will treat you. Your doctor most likley will not see you until you are discharged, and if you are the one in three you will be killed.

Dina J. Padilla

Oct. 6, 2013, 8:53 p.m.

I know the history too. I also worked in it and like many things, in the 60’s medical care was a whole lot better in terms of patients receiving good care. I worked in it on and off for 30 years, Today, I’m sure there are many good things but far too many bad things and Shirley is pretty much on target. With witnessing the horror stories working in a hospital, being a patient and family members being a patient and the flat out denial of care or with a false terminal diagnosis and filthy hospitals run by MBA’s, all just counting the bottom line leaves me with heebie jeebies because medical care IS after all now just about running a business and nothing do with real medical care! The business model years ago, too, was also different where people actually cared about the integrity, morals, & values, and I don’t see much of that anywhere, anymore much less if it’s in a hospital or clinic! I am really glad though, that people are now caring enough to bring the real “health care” situation to light,  because it does give me a bit of hope as well as to many others! When you get told something, ask as mnay questions as you possibly can, just don’t accept someone’s word. If they’re real about what they are doing, you’ll know it!

Shirley Desmond

Oct. 6, 2013, 9:28 p.m.

Dear Dina     You are so right.. I have walked in your shoes. About the same number of years. Perhaps a few more.  What happened to you?  When did you see things change?  I am here tonight..

Dayton Smith, Jr.

Oct. 7, 2013, 12:05 p.m.

This ProPublica article was good but what does it really accomplish? A lot of people responded but all we end up doing is talking around in circles with other people who have no means to change all that is wrong. This is what has been going on in the past ten years and what will be going on over the next ten while 1,000,000 plus people will suffer and die each and every year.

This is a very broken system as the massive bureaucracy put in place by congress insures there is no way change will ever happen. As senator Dick Durbin told me the solution to all this death is to learn from it. Of course this guy is just one of the government officials who have sold us out in favor of his back pocket and he nor the rest of his senate buddies and the congress will never cut the strings to their back pockets in favor of human life. Once again, the only solution to this is to abolish all present state and federal medical regulatory agencies and replace them with one national agency in and of itself transparent and accountable. This new agency has to be responsible for the licensing, standards and regulation of all medical professionals and facilities. Moreover, this agency cannot be directed by hospital administrators or attorney’s as all present state and federal agencies are. This new agency has to be directed by “in the trench doctors”, actual victims who have been forced to follow Durbin’s solution and learn the system as well as business minds who have a proven track record of problem resolution.

I would guarantee if this new agency was to come about and forced transparency and accountability within the medical establishment 80% of all present problems would go away in a very short period of time. However, we live in a country that has no clue how to manage our affairs and would rather force a new trillion dollar social well fair system down our throats and call it “affordable health care” versus addressing the real problems we users of the US health care system are forced to deal with. I guess this is what happens when you have a 2.8 Trillion Dollar business being able to use its vast wealth to post seven plus lobbyists to Durbin, his senate buddies and each member of congress, out spend all other lobbyists by a ratio of 4:1 and in recent years throw 5.6 billion dollars at people like Durbin. I guess this is why his solution is to learn from it. I just wonder how much he would really learn if it was one of his loved ones who became the next “one in three” people harmed or killed for walking through the door of a US Medical Facility.

How sad it is to live in a society that has placed a dollar above that of a human life as that is exactly what has happened.

Dayton

Dina J Padilla

Oct. 7, 2013, 12:22 p.m.

Shirely, I sent in a large response about “care” and my role in knowing the ugliness of it. One would have to go back to who started this evil machine and that is was KAISER and who wanted it, maybe some in our very own government, all to save lots of already tax paid money or paid into public programs by the same people who pain into those systems and who are the targets.. KAISER is in everything and has all protections. It got to build on the biggest toxic dump in Downey, CA. AND ON AN earthquake fault. 250 deadly toxins with pateitns, staff, visitors, other folks who come in and out! One has to ask why Kaiser? Well if it does the job( like an offing machine) then, it does serve the correct purpose because IS what has come out of all of this is that kaiser via the military (V.A.) there has been NO accountability whatsoever. NONE!!!!
AND until people know the root cause of this illness(etiology), only then can you correctly apply the correct treatment.
Kaiser itself is and was made up of military doctors way back BUT to not have to obey any law or pay for any of their outright medical mistakes is just stunning in of itself AND OR BUT, they paved the path to more than just crappy medicine and total disregard of and to human life. Get rid of the cause and you go back to REAL medicine.

Dina J Padilla

Oct. 7, 2013, 12:30 p.m.

Shirley, again, I did respond to your last response, BUT it was not put on this comment board and it took me a long time to write about some prime examples of outright medical MALPRACTICE with kaiser.and it said it had to wait for the moderator. plastic bags of dirty needles, sups snorting coke, diabetic patients being used for experimental surgeries, morphine used for everything and being diagnosed with a non tested terminal illness and then you’re off to straight euthanasia existing programs. Lots of morphine and no food and water. I took this info to the church. I just saw so many things that were done so evilly and are so evil and wrong against human life that it’s been an ongoing nightmare until someone decides to realize w who is doing it and why!
What happened to bio ethics of patient rights in hospitals?

Dina J Padilla

Oct. 7, 2013, 12:58 p.m.

Shirley, My mother had an ongoing medical condition since I knew her as a small child so I was very privy to medical institutions like the University of Chicago and Illinois, besides working for hospitals and clinics and doctors, where my jobs were under paid and under appreciated but none the less, I had a very keen eye as to what is right vs wrong and what is a mistake vs intentional.  AND NOT until did I go to work for kaiser in SAC. CA. did I realize and know the difference in both right & wrong & mistake vs intentional in medical care Kaiser’s way of doing medical care sets the standards for the poorest of all care, all just for profit and that WAS intentional. Kaiser really did get lay out the path with Nixon’s go ahead OF kaiser’s HMO NON-PROFIT and WHY our medical care is more than just sub-standard because we’re all doing it the Kaiser way!!! As kaiser medical top doctors would say used to say to us because of their way of doing medical care, that WE WERE, we’re kaiserized and now the whole nation IS KAISERIZED!. AND we are again, all thanks to Nixon. While most don’t know about kaiser, let me tell you, that’s where the “medical ” evil empire starts!

Shirley Desmond

Oct. 7, 2013, 2:30 p.m.

Dear Dina,  I understand the moderator…  They have to be sure we keep it clean…  Thank you for your interesting information…  Have you read the post from Mr Dayton Smith.  He is the founder and organizer of the Medical Mal Practice Awareness.  Look them up .. He has a solution to address this mess.  Read THE MISSION Statement..  If you agree sign up,  I did and i truly believe there is strength in numbers..    Do you suppose there are more of us that would be willing to come forward and tell congress what we know?  Until i read your post, i have not seen many nurses or doctors willing to   Speak up….  With the exception of Dr Marty Makary..  He wrote the best selling book unaccountable.  He writes about the bad doctors and what is wrong with medical care today.  I bought the book and read the entire 226 pages in one night.  I sent him a copy of every thing i have collected over several years, documents of real case evidence.  Hoping he would look at some of this and help us get a criminal investigation.. That was January 7 2013.. as of today still NO response.  There was another doctor   that wrote HOW DOCTORS THINK..    that was Jerome Groopman MD.  I wrote to him years ago and as of today still no response..  He too had a New York Times Best seller.  Dayton Smith Has the answer IT IS TIME FOR ACTION..    Thank you for being so brave,  Dina will any of your patients come forward?  I really believe they will i think they are made to feel they have no where to turn and give up.

Dina J Padilla

Oct. 7, 2013, 2:59 p.m.

Shirley, I already wrote on his site. I belong to kaiserpapers.org ( where there are a lot of stories regarding the horrors to patients AND employee who were kaiser patients at kaiser) and with it as a KPRC board member. I also am a board member with the Hospice Alliance with Ron Panzer. I do believe I kept it clean on my bigger explanation of where & how I got started and ended up and what occurred in between as an employee of kaiser, where I saw far too much harm in far too many areas and then I was to become a huge target since 1985, I guess you could call it, a medical whistleblower on so many types of medical crimes. I DO believe in numbers, the more the better to show that the insurance industry as with kaiser, that this is no happenstance, that this is all being on purpose for another purpose, money! Back in the 60’s not until kaiser in the early 70’s with Nixon, money was NOT the incentive and that is where kaiser came in, making profit and Nixon approved of it all and it all went down hill from there, with kaiser’s” non profit” ” for profit business” model, no matter what the consequences (there are none now) to us as patients, we then became “consumers” and the dynamics for us patients were forever changed,  the number one & only driving factor in all of this IS profit and that has been kaiser’s MO since the early 70’s and with THAT being said, that is the premeditation to profit above all else permeated through and through the medical community like a terminal disease into all of “health care” rather than real medical care!

Dina J Padilla

Oct. 7, 2013, 3:01 p.m.

The moderator just held back another one of my comments. I belong to kaiserpapers.org and Hospice Alliance with Ron Panzer! Hopefully the rest of the other message I sent out will appear.

Dina J Padilla

Oct. 7, 2013, 3:04 p.m.

can’t get through the moderator

Shirley Desmond

Oct. 7, 2013, 3:24 p.m.

Dear Dayton     What did the Pro Publica Article   ACCOMPLISH ?    This great news media,,  Gave us the means to find   you and your information on MEDICAL MAL PRACTICE AWARENESS..    please do not be discouraged by people talking, in circles,,  Next time you are at a carnival,  watch the MERRY GO Round..  The Carousel keeps on going but people keep getting on and off.  Some good people will get on…    There are so many victims out there, You know the numbers. we need to find them and they ARE looking for us..  Perhaps Pro Publica would consider a Article about   The Medical Mal Practice Awareness Organization.  Keep working on that stone!.

Dina J Padilla

Oct. 7, 2013, 3:26 p.m.

YES! I got on message board, starting to worry there. But all is okay! I will try again to sign on with Medical Mal Practice Awareness.
BTW, I went to many state agencies (legislators, legislative hearings on so many medical safety and employee & patient safety issues) like OSHA to report the many abuses with dirty and unprotected needle containment, blood pathogen leaks in the hospital and the leaking of kaiser’s own HUGE sterilizing machine.. among many many other things, OSHA was at kaiser several times a week if not more and they heard from just about every day if not more and not one agency did what they were supposed to do and why we call California, Kaiserfornia but when it is all said and done, most “health care” in this country is just like kaiser! Kaiser is worth many billions above their own costs. that is paid with federal & state funding via employer paid premiums (medical, medicaid, tax breaks….private employer premiums, patient premiums, bonding,  employee tax breaks, and they have all of the state employee’s on their ” worker comp” system contract and that is an OH VEY.. you name it they get it. AND no questions asked and NO accountability. patients don’t get bills for decades. AND for me a real sad part is that they mete out health care via our Veteran’s Administration via kaiser policy of doing “health care”, CDC, the list goes on and on and on, THAT IS the reason why our health care system is so poor. I hope this is clarifying enough.

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