Good for you Christina for telling the truth. I know you and worked with you and was in the room with you when we both returned and met Rock. As far as Josh and the rest go, I spent ‘05 to ‘09 driving trucks in convoys supplying the military in Iraq hauling jet fuel, ammo, equipment and anything else you can think of. I can’t remember how many times I ran up and down Tampa past Samarra. I lost 4 trucks from under me from IED’s, not counting all the other crap that happened. I was on 522 missions outside the wire from Anaconda.  We got hit almost every time we went out. I lost friends. I now have severe PTSD, TBI, swelling on the brain and constant massive headaches and I’m not crying about it. Yeah, I did it for $17.31 an hour and averaged 96 hours a week to better my financial situation. Call me a mercenary or anything else you people want, but I’m a vet, 58 years old, two of my 3 kids have served and no one is thanking me, giving me a parade, handing me a medal or helping me out. I don’t expect it and frankly I don’t want it. Grow the hell up, Josh. You joined. Nobody forced you. I went over, nobody forced me. Quit crying about it. Be a man. Life ain’t fair and war sucks and that’s the way it is and until the people of this country stand up and tell the politicians on BOTH SIDES that they are all FULL OF CRAP and ENOUGH IS ENOUGH then all of this BS will continue and good people will go to far away places and die horrible deaths for reasons that you and I will never understand and things will never change. And as far as you go, Mr. Bowel Movement, for all your talk, I’d like to see how big a one you’d take the first time a tracer round ran across your windshield.

Two reasons for the difference in pay between contractors and soldiers is: 1) it takes at least 6 months to a year to train a soldier to do his job in a combat zone, while it takes only one week to prep a civilian contractor and drop him in on his job. . . which he will perform 12 hours a day 7 days a week - no liberty no pass no day off - supporting soldiers.  2) During the soldiers train up time the gov’t will support the soldiers family needs as well as pay the soldiers salary.  When the soldier leaves the combat zone the gov’t will reassign him and pay his salary and benefits until the soldier has completed his contractual obligation.  When the contractor leaves the war zone his pay and insurance halt.

for “PSYCHO, AND CHRISTINA”

You are two seriously stupid people.  You know nothing about mercenaries, so shut your goddamned mouths.  So you drove trucks or sucked dicks, I don’t give a damn.  No one twisted your fucking arm.  Did you think you were helping keep the American Sheeple “safe?”  Did you think you were protecting american “freedoms”  whatever the fuck that means.  You were looking to make money, and that alone.  Finally, DON’T WRITE TO ME AGAIN!! you’re presence in these wars makes you guilty of crimes against humanity.  My suspicion is that all these “medical” problems were with you if at all, BEFORE you decided to be a “hero.”  In Vietnam, we drove our own MILITARY trucks with fuel, ammo, and such.  “Ass and Trash” missions we called them when slicks did the job.  so change your fucking diaper and shut up.

May I try to steer the conversation another direction?

Whatever your opinion may be of contractors, the reality is that the future holds many questions which bear on public policy.

Thousands of contractors, both Americans and foreigners, have now been killed or wounded. For the U.S., at least, that raises questions about public health. Who is going to care for those severely wounded? Who is going to care for the families left behind?

Yes, you may complain that they should be responsible since they took the high paying job. But the reality is this: it is in no-one’s interest to have individuals with mental or physical trauma wandering around shopping malls or in homeless shelters.  U.S. policy in hiring contractors has created an entirely new kind of pseudo-veteran: civilians with the experience, the trauma, the injuries of war, but who are completely outside the system of medical care for members and veterans of the armed forces.

If anybody ever wanted to know why the Americans get beaten so easily, read all this stuff. At each others’ throats like a bunch of ???

I am no tech-neophyte, nor am I a luddite, but I have been in a befuddled, bemused bewilderment for the past decade that any media outlet that takes itself seriously or hopes that I take it seriously allows readers of any stripe to post comments of any kind.  The above comments (even those by the author of the piece) offer no insight, no depth, no probing examination, no intelligent discourse of any kind. Neither are those comments, that any rational communal standard might deem obnoxious, in any way provocative; not provocative of more profound contemplation of the issues, not provocative of intelligent debate or respectful discourse. Thanks, propublica, for offering such great reporting on so many issues that are ignored or glossed over by more popular media, but please stop letting fools get their juice all over you.

Courage was mine, and I had mystery,
Wisdom was mine, and I had mastery:

Reflect on that

The moderators have a responsibility here, to prevent such abuse - that from josh.

For IROQUOIS227 and josh

I am not Crying about it but you are ones that just stir up Hate and Discontent
I do not think you realize or would even get it
There have been since time began
and even since America was founded
there have always been Civilian personnel supporting our Military
Now I am not a contractor that carries a weapon I am support for our Military
I am DOD and that people think only signed sealed persons are committed to America so you can Trash America
I have signed a contract with OUR American government
there are alot of things i do not like about what i see
BUT even tho i did not vote for this i will ALWAYS support the MEN AND WOMEN that have no choice
NOW I bet most are against the DRAFT

here is the Crux of it all

when there was a draft the jobs were filled mostly by drafted personal
now that there is no DRAFT and we do not have the persons SIGNING up on their own
WHO is going to do the JOB

so those that have already served their country
and those that feel OUR military DESERVE the help do what we can
I will not say there are some that only come for the money
most do not stay once they realize its not what they are used to or after the rockets and mortars come raining down

and you are putting down the MEN AND WOMEN that serve for something else besides the Dollar

I am almost betting if you did serve you were kicked out or barely made it thru
I work with so many that did 20 Plus years and retired on thier Terms now are here to help the ones that serve now

your cussing and getting off Subject dose not help anything it just shows that you are mean and hateful to others that PROTECT you so you can be mean and hateful

well put Christinia.

This discussion seems to be focused on judging and defending the individual contractor’s motives. Interestingly, everyone is giving a free ride to the private entrepreneurs who are making fortunes selling “canon fodder” and to government policies that have created a “perpetual-war machine”. Commercialization of warfare has much greater implications, not least of which involves the message that it is sending to the rest of the world.

FOR RAVEN

Your first sentence doesn’t make much sense.  Oppose contractors, and the war?  these wars are established by the people who started them, on LIES.  Hussein, a bastard to be sure, but the US has never cared about that, and has installed several in other countries.  the point which you missed, is that Iraq was IN COMPLIANCE WITH UN RESOLUTION 1441. You, like most of these people can’t seem to understand THE FUCKING WARS ARE CRIMES!! THE US SHOULDN’T BE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!  FOR GOD’S SAKE TRY LEARNING THESE FACTS BEFORE SHOOTING YOUR MOUTH OFF!!

CHRISTINA
Still don’t get it aye?  THERE’S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ANY JOB TO DO!!! GET IT!!!  THE WARS ARE CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.  THE UNELECTED BUSH CARTEL STARTED THESE WARS TO POSSESS IRAQ’S OIL AND TO GET THE TRANSAFGHAN PIPELINE MOVING TO GET OIL OUT OF THE CAUCASUS WHICH IS LAND LOCKED.  ONE MORE TIME SWEETCHEEKS, THE WARS ARE CRIMES, NO ONE IS SUPPOSED TO BE THERE FROM THE US!!!!!

sine nomine

FIRST, MAKE YOUR PLAY AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.  second, you are infinitely uninformed, and unsophisticated.  THE WARS ARE FUCKING CRIMES YOU MORON.  try hard to make sure your brain is engaged before shifting your mouth into gear.  A small bit of advise.  Don’t EVER threaten someone when there isn’t a chance on earth you could defeat.  you’re protected by your anonymity and that alone.

Andrew Corsini..  good points, the other funny thing that isnt being pointed out is that most of the large firms over here hire a few Generals who have recently retired to exploit the contacts they still have with current members of the military to get fat contracts.  As a contractor i cant believe that i deserve these negative comments when i am over here but the retired Generals getting fat at home get off free….

Bui Dat Do
unlike your country, america is a heterogeneous population.  It has a short sordid history of sticking it’s large mushroom nose in everyone elses business except it’s own.  It is the victim of a dumbing down process started in1908 with the super elites.  the Rockefeller foundation, Carnegie foundation, Ford foundation, Guggenheim foundation, DuPont Foundation and many others.  The government in this country answers to these superrich even today.  Further a huge portion of this population is uneducated, uninformed, and unsophisticated.  It follows that their only purpose here is opining.  It is clear beyond contest that they are in the “god and guns” mode.  That’s why they sound like a bunch of high school sophomores.

Andrew Corsini
your point is well taken.  The fact still remains that you shouldn’t be there at all.  Even if these if these wars were legit, the military takes it’s chances, not civilians.  Wars are fought because the civilian governments even unelected ones such as the Bush Cartel make horrible gaffs and YOU get to pay for it. Every second the US in ANY form stays in southwest asia, a crime against humanity is continued.  that is irrefutable unalterable fact.

dsrobins

EVERYBODY CARES IF CONTRACTORS GET WHACKED.  THE SOLDIERS DIDN’T HAVE PISTOLS AT THEIR HEADS TO SIGN UP EITHER.  TOO MANY VIDEO GAMES, NOT ENOUGH CONCERN OVER HOW THESE WARS HAPPENED AND WHO STARTED THEM.  We know that corporate america is DIRECTLY responsible for the wars.  both are lost, and largely by IEDs.  Home made bombs, many made with US leftovers from the Gulf (100 hour) war.  Imagine an educated society that keeps a sharp watch on it’s “government.”  this sort of shit would never happen.  This “government” has taken US jobs, taxed the shit out of us, killed countless americans in this and the last wars.  The ONLY war this country ever HAD to fight, and even that comes into question with a clear view of the history that precedes it, was WWII.

i am with you IROQUOIS227.  Ironically enough, i just found out that we got hit over the weekend by mortars 19 wounded or dead, contractors.  it will never make the paper, guaranteed.  If contractors hadnt been sleeping there or over here working, it would have been troops sleeping there. that starts to blur the line a little i believe.

While we welcome debate and discussion of our stories, comments that are only meant to insult other readers or that do not comment on the story, have been and will be deleted. We kindly ask that you take such comments elsewhere. 

Many thanks.

When did we stop using the word “mercenaries?”  Some foreign oil contractors die in the war zone, fine, call them contractors.  If we’re paying personnel to guard outposts, protect military supply ops or anything else that involves arming them, they are mercenaries.  We’ve been seeing news coverage of these paid soldiers since the start of the Iraq war, and not one major media outlet has the courage to step forward and use the word that fits best.  Is that individual preference by these news writers?  That’s hardly feasible.

Ummm.. clearly most you are filled with hate and stupidity!!

Did you ever consider that MANY of the contractors ARE our soldiers and Marines that have been deployed time after time with crappy pay to serve this country!?! Now, they are there to make a little money for their families so that they can have some options in life other than fighting a war for hateful people like you?!? Considering that most civilian enployers will not hire a veteran, they don’t have many options, do they?? While you were off going to college and starting a career, they were fighting for their life, your life, and your children’s lives. What a way to say thanks.

All of you that wish them harm are just gross human beings and I feel bad for you when you face our Maker.

Marine Wife
Still don’t get it aye wife?  Most of the “contractors” are americans.  at least the ones getting beat.  I can’t imagine what well of data you drank from to arrive at the conclusion that most employers won’t hire veterans.  that is pure fiction. Most employers don’t seem to be willing to hire trained personnel.  I went off to college after spending three years on active duty during Vietnam, and a year in a reserve Special Forces group.  They’re not in Southwest Asia protecting me or anyone else given the fact the Arabs were never a threat to us.  The problem is all these poorly trained soldiers are getting out and starting their own “security” establishments, and winning huge contracts to do work the military used to do itself.  Be advised, when you use the term “contractor,” it was and still is a synonym for “mercenary” and these people are combatants.  The US doesn’t belong there in the first place.  that was a Bush Cartel, and PNAC action planned long before Bush and his Family stole two elections.

I was a contractor. I was not a mercenary. Every contract I accepted or declined required State Dept. creds.

As far as a draft is concerned, who wants to serve with someone who doesn’t want to be there in the first place.

And to the crazies here: The same voting machines that elected Bush also elected the socialists in power (for) now including that thing in the White House.

Marine Wife, thanks for your comments, you are right on.  IROQUOIS227- we are not mercenaries… the civilian armed contractors(which i am not armed this rotation) that i have seen have more experience than the Privates and the PFCs that i see over here. Do you have issue on an experience level with them being over here???

The greatest mercenary leader of our time is a man named Mike Hoare.  Most of you have never heard that name.  He led mercenary forces in Africa during the post colonial period.  He said the purpose of a mercenary force is to act as shock troops.  The tip of the spear to break through enemy lines to be followed by government troops who would pacify the area and begin garrison operations.  That is what a mercenary does, not check ID’s at the gate or guard a convoy.  That is the work of a security guard.  In wars past those jobs (checking ID’s and guarding convoys) was done by infantry or military police.  Since the draw down of American military forces in the wake of the end of the Cold War we do not have enough of those forces to perform those missions without having every last soldier deployed with no dwell time at home or time for training (units actually lose their edge during long deployments and are rotated home as much to retrain as to give the troops some much needed R&R) thus we have the hiring of civilian workers to augment our military forces.  It is a shame that our military members cannot be as well paid as the contractors, but you have to understand that to have a contractor in place for a year is actually a lot cheaper for the government then to have a private standing in his place.  It is a shame, but it is also the economic facts of life.

Given the above, calling security contractors mercenaries is academically disingenuous and ignores historical precedent and word usage, but I can see how the mistake can be made given the lack of education in the general public today.  Calling support contractors and translators mercenaries is just ignorant plain and simple.

This post is already to long so I will refute the idea that war in Iraq and Afghanistan is illegal in another post.

Now as for the ridiculous notion that the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is somehow illegal. 

Part 1:

I know it was a long time ago and may be hard for some people to remember, but a little over nine years ago some folks flew hijacked airplanes into three buildings in NYC and Washington DC.  A fourth airplane crashed during an attempt by the passengers to retake the plane after they learned their likely fate.  This coordinated attack claimed the lives of nearly 3,000 innocent people and 19 scumbags that deserve to burn in hell for eternity.

This atrocity was carried out by an organization that was supported by the then legal government of Afghanistan.  Make no mistake this attack was an act of war against the United States of America.  Those that committed it and those that supported it are the legitimate enemies of our nation.  Given these facts alone the war in Afghanistan is not only just, but necessary for our nation to fight.  It is not about vengeance or chest thumping it is about keeping an atrocity like the September 11th 2001 attacks from ever happening again.

Now a lot of people are saying that Iraq and Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with Al Qaeda and the attacks of September 11th.  That is certainly true.  However it is an indisputable fact that Saddam Hussein did support terrorist organizations other then Al Qaeda and was a destabilizing influence in a region where America was now involved in a shooting war.  In his speech on Sept 12th 2001 President Bush stated that America would not just take action against the perpetrators of the Sept 11th attacks, we would also fight against other terrorist organizations and any state that supports them.  Congress voted to authorize this action.  While it was not a formal declaration of war as would normally given since no specific country could yet be named due to the nature of international terrorism in which non government organizations act with military force against nations and their people with political goals behind their actions, it was still an authorization by the legislative branch of the US government for the executive branch to commit military and intelligence forces against hostile entities.  In effect if not in fact this was a legal declaration of war not just against Al Qaeda, but against all terrorist organizations worldwide and also any nation state that would give them any form of support or aid.  Be it arms, training, facilities, money, or safe harbor.  Iraq has been proven to have given all of these things and more to various terrorist organizations over the years, even if Al Qaeda was not one of the supported groups. 

The action which precipitated the invasion of Iraq in 2003, when militarily and politically it would have been better to wait, was a report by the UN weapons inspection team that said Iraq was no longer cooperating with UN arms inspectors on the subject of nuclear weapons proliferation.  This coupled with as yet undisclosed intelligence reports that convinced even Hillary Clinton (as she famously stated after voting to authorize the Iraq invasion) that there was a creditable threat that Iraq was trying to develop nuclear weapons.  Given that everyone from the UN on down believed at the time that Iraq was trying to make some form of nuclear weapon, that Iraq had in the past (and right up to the point of the invasion) supported terrorist organizations, that Iraq had in the recent past used weapons of mass destruction (ask a Kurd about it sometime) against civilian population centers, and that Iraq was a known hostile power in the region where US forces were operating the 2003 invasion made perfect strategic sense in the ongoing war on terror.  Granted time has shown us that if there was a nuclear weapons program in Iraq it was nascent or not past the planning stages, however at the time of the invasion no one in the US government could have possibly known that fact.

Part 2:

I would also point out that invading Iraq gave the US a huge terrain advantage in fighting the muslim militants enraged over our invasion of Afghanistan.  For those of you not up to date on your middle eastern geography, Afghanistan is very mountainous.  It is easy for even large groups of people to move around the countryside undetected.  This makes it easy for enemy reinforcements to cross both the Pakistani and Iranian borders to fight our forces there.  Iraq if you didn’t know is one rather large river valley (two rivers actually) flanked by two very flat featureless deserts with few roads on each side.  It is bordered on the north by Pro US forces (both the Turks and the Kurds, though they hate each other) and to the South by Kuwait.  It is my opinion that someone (maybe even Bush) had been studying Sun Tzu when the decision was made to occupy Iraq.  You see while it is easy to infiltrate into Afghanistan (just ask our guys fighting every day on the border with Pakistan) it is very hard to infiltrate into Iraq.  In fact we stacked a lot of bodies of foreign fighters that went to go join the jihad out in those deserts.  Those dead bodies would have had a much better chance of making it into position to strike effectively at US forces if they had gone to Afghanistan instead of Iraq.  (Un)Fortunately for them Iraq was closer to their point of origin and it looks a lot easier to get to.  At least on paper when you aren’t accustomed to thinking in terms of satellite surveillance, drone aircraft, helicopter gunships, and highly mobile cavalry/mechanized infantry forces between you and your goal.

So as you can see both the fight and Afghanistan and Iraq are both moral since they are aimed at terrorists and those who would support them.  Are tactically and strategically sound since they either deny the enemy ground or force them onto unfavorable ground.  And are legal because they were started using as much of the process described in the Constitution of the United States as is possible given the unimaginable situation even a decade ago that a nongovernmental organization would be able to attack and inflict mass casualties on a nation state that can only be responded to militarily.

If you want some justification under “international law” I would remind you that there is no such thing.  There is no international legislative body to draft such laws, no system for ratifying them, and no method to enforce such an absurdity.  International law exists only in the minds of the transnational progressive set and has no basis in reality.  Merely thinking something is real does not make it so and I will not dignify this false idea with a response other then this.

Well, Joel.  You’re sadly mistaken.  The terrorists of 911 are home grown.  Afghanistan didn’t send any terrorists to the US, Iraq most certainly didn’t.  Iraq had nothing to do with 911, nor did Afghanistan.  You rehash already vetted crap.  There IS NO GLOBAL WAR ON TERRORISM.  That would be like a global war on war, or some other far fetched notion.  Your statements also demonstrate how little you know of the US past acts of terrorism.  You know, like EVERY COUNTRY IN SOUTH AND CENTRAL AMERCA BACK AT LEAST TO THE BEGINNING OF THE LAST CENTURY.  AFRICA, SOUTHEAST ASIA, AND ETC.  COMMUNISM.  THERE HAS NEVER BEEN AN EVEN CLOSE TO SUCCESSFUL ATTEMPT AT A COMMUNIST FORM OF SOCIAL CONTROL.  Just like the US IS NOT A DEMOCRACY.  You’re like most americans, “god and guns.”

wrong again joel, pt 1.  The two planes that hit the towers were E767s.  They were rigged as evidenced on the underside of each aircraft, as tankers, with one odd thing.  A pod the size of one of the engines at the right wing root.  It turned out to be a missile launcher, and each aircraft, nanoseconds before impact experience an explosion in front of the radome.  the wings full of fuel reached the building nanoseconds later and exploded OUTSIDE THE BUILDING WHERE 90 OR MORE OF THE FIRES WERE.  NO AIRCRAFT CRASHED IN SHANKSVILLE, OR THE PENTAGON.  The government depends on uneducated, uninformed, ideologically based, unsophisticated to swallow their bilge.  Sounds like you’re one of those people

Joel, you need to go someplace to expectorated where the dummies are.  Mike Hoare?  Never heard of ‘im.  THE US IS HAS NO REASON TO BE IN SOUTHWEST ASIA STUDHOSS!!!  GODDAMNIT, WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO GET THROUGH YOUR SIXTH GRADE SKULL?  THE UNITED STATES IS THE LARGEST TERRORIST ON EARTH!!! FOLLOWED CLOSELY BY ISRAEL.  EVERY MINUTE THE US STAYS STEALING OIL AND PREPARING FOR THE TRANSAFGHAN PIPELINE, THEY A COMMITTING A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.  GO BACK TO YOUR CHURCH OR LODGE, I’M SURE YOU CAN FIND OTHER PEOPLE THERE WHO, LIKE YOURSELF KNOW NOTHING OF WORLD EVENTS!!

MARINE WIFE

The causes for these wars are established lies to the American people.  Not to insult these troops, but their training is as poor as it has been since the civil war.  They were handed all this technology, most of it was junk, and they’ve been beaten bloody by home made bombs.  Most of the material used is left over from the the first Bush war.  People think George the Dumber “kept us safe.”  FROM WHAT?, THEM?  Hussein was most certainly a bastard, but today there is still no control over the shias, sunnies, and kurds.  It TOOK an iron hand to keep these three factions from war.  The US lost Iraq, and Afghanistan because of “hollywood” four star generals that have no combat experience, and a chicken shit officer corps.  You can’t win a war you’re not right in.  I know, i’ve been there.

MR. PARKER

I’ll have you know that some of the finest soldiers the US has ever produced were draftees.  You don’t know anything about them.  Many of their DRAFTEE names are on the black wall.  They were highly decorated, and finally the war in Vietnam was as illegal as these.  trying to END this war that’s lasted since 1954, was one of the issues that cost Former President Kennedy his life.  ONCE AGAIN…..........I don’t give a damn if you stomp roaches, THE GODDAMNED US IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE IN SOUTHWEST ASIA!!  Remember that the Bush Cartel WAS NEVER ELECTED TO THE OFFICE OF POTUS.

IROQUOIS227- you need help.

Iriquois227,

I present historical facts that are easily verifiable through open news sources.  You respond with some silly story about 767’s with missile launchers on them.  Come on you can’t really believe that.  Those planes were hijacked by 19 men primarily from Saudi Arabia who had received training and support from the Al Qaeda organization which in 2001 was headquartered almost exclusively in Afghanistan.
Missile launchers on 767’s indeed.  I suppose they were installed by the Martians from Roswell New Mexico.

A little study on your part would show we import more oil from Mexico then the entire Middle East combined.  Even if we did not, protecting a supply of valuable resources is hardly a crime against humanity.  Also we are hardly stealing what very little oil Iraq is producing.  The Iraqis themselves are selling it and using the profits (after the various factions take their cut) to rebuild their country.

Why would anyone build a pipeline through Afghanistan.  To run it through to Pakistan (the Iranians sure wouldn’t let us route through their country) you would have to go through (over) the Hindu Kush.  One of the tallest mountain ranges around and arguably the toughest terrain anywhere.  You would need lift stations every mile on this pipeline.  Better to run any pipelines east into Georgia.  there are still mountains in the way, but they are not as tall or a rugged.

This is a purely defensive war being fought against NGO’s and certain governments that support them.  It is complicated by both the culture and the religion of our enemies.  These are the facts which anyone who ever spent any time on the ground in the region or who has done a little historical fact checking could tell you.  I have done both.  You it appears have not left the USA since the 1970’s and can only respond to reasoned arguments with jingoism, absurd conspiracy theories, and the caps lock key.  Refute my assertions with facts that you can back up with verifiable sources, not emotional hysterics and wild claims.

If you are interested in Mike Hoare a simple google search with his name will turn up a lot of information.  He was a remarkable gentleman who went to Africa to be a mercenary (a real mercenary, not a security contractor) and came to love and respect the place for it’s own merits.

truth be known, we dont use Iraqi oil here. All the oil that america uses here in Iraq is imported thru Kuwait just to make sure we dont have the appearance of War for Oil.

great news!
the more the merrier!

RK

the US bought 1.2 billion barrels of crude from Hussein in the absurd “oil for food” program.  Problem was, unlike petrodollars, which the US can and does print out of thin air, Hussein demanded payment in Euros.  The USs plan was never to US Iraq oil for the market, but as a goddamnable size reserve.  Like the capped wells in texas and elsewhere.

Well, Joel, since you seem to remain attached to you gross ignorance, then your situation must be reclassified as stupidity.  “Open News?’  what is that?  You mean corporate owned news outlets.  That’s not your problem though.  You seem to desperately need “gods and guns.”  You know flags, and sickly syrupy “patriotism” to wars that are crimes.  Clearly you have never seen the virtually countless photos and film clips of those aircraft.  Painted gray, windows too.  One had a Blue dot on the front aft of the flight deck.  If you are this plain stupid please don’t write me again.

RK

that’s probably true.

i do see a psychiatrist.  not helping huh.

IROQUOIS227,

Open news sources is a corruption of an intelligence term that has crept it’s way into common usage.  It refers to news stories that are available to the general public from major sources.  This would be outlets such as CNN, the BBC, the Washington Post, and as many other news organizations as you care to name.  As for the charge that they are corporate owned I do not see what that has to do with anything.  Large corporations are necessary to raise the kind of capital needed to pay reporters, buy broadcasting equipment, and all the other myriad expenses incurred to put together a story and send it to people all over the world via television, print, and most recently internet.  Of course the major news outlets are owned by corporations, they could not function otherwise. 

While I am Christian and do own guns, you seem to be the person hung up on them.  My relationship with God and the firearms in my safe have nothing to do with this discussion.  Your reference to them constitutes an ad hominem attack and does not address the issue at hand.  To wit my use of logic and easily available information to refute your assertions.  As for I my patriotism, I have traveled to and lived in enough countries to have come to the belief that while the United States of America has problems, it is still the best country on Earth.  I have made an effort to be a good citizen of my country and to do my admittedly small part to help correct those problems.  My friend I hate to tell you this, but your attitude is one of those problems.  I have no problem with your beliefs, however your less then polite way of asserting them coupled with your childish demeanor and inability to even see the point of view of someone that might disagree with you and discuss your issues in a calm, adult, and logical way makes all of humanity look bad.  We as a species are better then that.  If you disagree with me, then say so, and, if you feel like it, provide your reasons with the knowledge that I will accept or reject them based on my own personal experiences and having given them due thought.  The one thing I would ask of you is that you do so without the insults and strident tone.  It will help you get your point across to others and is better for your blood pressure as well.

I have addressed the notion that the war in Afghanistan and Iraq is illegal and refuted it.  If you can provide some sort of evidence to contradict me I would be happy to listen and research it.

All the existent video and still pictures of the planes used during the September 11th attack has been low enough quality to make it impossible to see the things you are claiming with regard to the windows being painted on the aircraft..  As for a “blue dot” I fail to see what an airlines paint scheme has to do with jihadi idiots flying planes into buildings.  Can you perhaps expand on the significance of this?

I’m sorry Joel.  I tried hard to get off your hook with an unpleasantry, but by god and sonny jesus, your are one DUMB bastard.  it’s people like you with nothing but corporate news to use as evidence, the very corporations that are making billions off these wars.  There was little Middle east turbulence, comparatively speaking until the US WITH NO JUSTIFICATION, upped, and invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.  Using the painfully common view that Bin Laden and 19 hijackers did this, THEY ARE ALL FROM SAUDI ARABIA!!  And GREAT friends of the Bush Cartel.  All you do when you open your big mouth is flatulate.  You need to shut the fuck up bud!

I’m sorry Joel.  I tried hard to get off your hook with an unpleasantry, but by god and sonny jesus, your are one DUMB bastard.  it’s people like you with nothing but corporate news to use as evidence, the very corporations that are making billions off these wars.  There was little Middle east turbulence, comparatively speaking until the US WITH NO JUSTIFICATION, upped, and invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.  Using the painfully common view that Bin Laden and 19 hijackers did this, THEY ARE ALL FROM SAUDI ARABIA!!  And GREAT friends of the Bush Cartel.  All you do when you open your big mouth is flatulate.

you sound like a 12 year old joel.  YOU are the epitome of an american.  uneducated unsophisticated, and uninformed.  in one word, stupid.  you’re blocked from my email and here.

To bad seeing as how you just admitted I was right when I (and the rest of the rational world) insisted that those airplanes that crashed into the those buildings were being flown by muslim terrorists and not some elaborate plot involving remote controlled 767’s with missile launchers installed in place of their engines.

Imagine how much more logic and rationality I could have brought into your life if we had continued our conversation.

I really do wish you the best of luck over coming your bigotry and hatred.  May your life be full of happyness and your friends and loved ones always healthy.

Good day.

clearly you are mentally challenged.  Everything you have expectorated is a lie. I despise people like you because being the pencil dicks they are, they desperately need to hold on to something to feel safe, even if a lie.  I didn’t prove anything you flatulated correct, indeed the opposite.  You continue to lie without conscience.  You haven’t read the data, or seen the pictures and film.  so suck a dick an continue taking it in the butt.

Actually you did agree with me.  You even did it all in caps.  Just scroll up a little and you will see.

Your hatred, bigotry, and apparently homophobia is a poor reflection on you as a person.  I hope you can over come that and lead a good life.

As I said I wish you nothing but the best.

I actually have seen the data used by some people to claim the Sept 11th 2001 attacks were an “inside job” or some sort of Government Conspiracy.  I have rejected them for two reasons.  One the so called evidence I have seen is all either low quality video that is so hard to see any detail as to allow the viewer to see anythnig they wish to see or two it is all conjecture delivered by people who seem mentally ill.  While I do not discriminate against the mentally ill, I also do not use their delusions to form my beliefs and opinions.

Most importantly though the various conspiracy theories put forth claiming the Sept 11th attacks were an “inside job” just do not make any sense.  There is no motive behind it other then President Bush wanted to kill a bunch of people.  Really if the president of the United States of America were that sociopathic it would have shown up in other ways as well.  The kind of person that would kill almost 3,000 innocent people to justify starting a war that will last for generations would be so far off the deep end as to not be functional in society.  Such a conspiracy as you describe would require more then one man even if that one man is the president.  Those people (and we are talking about some very highly educated and technically skilled people being necessary) would also have to be so sociopathic that they could not function in society let alone get to the positions it would be necessary for them to hold to accomplish it.

I reject the conspiracy theories not because they are technically impossible, but because they are sociologically impossible.  Not only would no large enough group (big enough to accomplish the goal of conducting the attacks and convincing the rest of the world that it was Al Qaeda) of human beings attempt to do this, that large a group of sociopaths would not be able to function as a team for long enough to choose a place to sit down and discuss their plan let alone actually carry it out.

Fuck all you people who say that we are criminals. I spent 11 years in the US special forces and made shit money and watched 5 of brothers die for this shit country. I do it for the money but also because if I didn’t this country would be taken over by the terrorist because of all you liberal pussies that dont have the balls to pick up a weapon and do whats right. Fuck all of you hippy scum. One day you will realize how important your military and private security companies are. The day you are being beheaded by the terrorist.

First a big thank you to Mr Miller and all others who are trying to keep a critical discussion on national security issue sensible and civilized

I am a Canadian, served in the Canadian armed forces….and worked two years as a private contractor providing specialized information operations services to US forces in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

I did indeed get a six figure salary for my specialized services, but to assume that all contractors do it for money is ignorant. 40% of my salary went to pay my TAXES,  to pay for my life insurance cost, to repay my own required training cost ie; a masters level education.

The remaining money was an emergency fund to mitigate any long term medical treatments should i have gotten wounded.

So when you take a step back you can see that even the money argument does not hold weight. I SERVED because i had to, because i wanted to and because it was my duty to contribute my skills, regardless of the uniform I wore…as long as it allowed me the appropriate outlet for contribution.. I would have died for any of the troops i served with and any one of them would have return the favor if the need had arise. Because once you are over there, you quickly realize which team you are on.

It easy to make the distinction back home, PSC vs military, in the comfort of one own living room or laptop screen, but the world isn’t black and white…it’s a giant shade of gray. The douchebags from BW that shot up the Iraqi round about are not the norm of contractors…just like the douchebags at Abu Grahid are not the template for of US servicemen.

Pandora’s box has been open…the goal should not be to demonize each side, but rather evolve in a constructive discussion. How do we make the private industry better and ACCOUNTABLE for the services rendered? How do we hold the client accountable for closing a blind eye on the contractors it chooses? How do we limit the use of private sector in warfare to areas that it is truly needed? How do we integrate/politicize/communicate the deaths of contractors in similar circumstances.  Is the argument about salary the scapegoat used by politicians and opinion makers to reduce the threshold for armed conflict ?

If you are not willing to push your argument further, please get off this forum.

To my brothers and sister of various nationalities, uniform type or color I thank you for your services rendered.

Mr Miller I thanks you for the article you wrote.